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国際討論日記

◇欧米人の見る日中関係(英語版)

July 30th, 2005
Why can’t Asia just get along?

I don’t read a lot of blogs these days, and the topics I write on
tend to come from my own experiences rather than the internet.
Here’s one blog entry on Harvard’s Global Voices Online that I
have to point out, though (via Peking Duck):

Inside the Japanese Blogosphere - The Anti-Korea Wave


1.


Da Xiangchang:

Very interesting links. Japan needs to fess up to its crimes
in WWII, whether in China or Korea or anything else. I’m sick and
tired of their whining about Hiroshima and Nagasaki! What people
don’t know about is the atomic bombs actually saved lives on both
sides by ending the war early. Had America gone through with its
Operaton Downfall-i.e., the invasion of Japan-an estimated 250,000
to 1 million American troops would’ve died. Needless to say, far
more would’ve died on the Japanese side. Personally, I’m GLAD
America dropped those bombs on Japan! Cuz 1) Japan started the war
and 2) the bombs in actuality saved millions of lives. These facts
are something what all these whiners never talk about.
2005 Jul 31 3:15 am
2.

John:

Ah, the inimitable DXC…

I couldn’t fabricate comments like yours if I wanted to. :)
2005 Jul 31 3:20 am
3.

greg pasden:

It’s amazing to read of the different view points.
I’ve noticed in my travels that most people have the same needs:
safety, food, love and humor.
2005 Jul 31 5:52 am
4.

schtickyrice:

Nevermind Asians, the various Chinese communities can’t even
get along amongst themselves.
2005 Aug 01 2:48 am
5.

Richard:

You know, I can understand (if not support) the Japanese
ultra-nationalists. What I can’t stand are the Japanophilic
Western apologists who try to defend and playdown the actions of
the Japanese ultranationalists.

I still remember a webboard posting where some guy played down
the fact that there was a Japanese textbook that completely omitted
the Nanjing massacre and other atrocities that the Japanese committed
in China by saying that it was distributed to only 2% of the student
population. Jesus Christ. Can you imagine what the reaction would be
if someone said that there’s nothing for the Jews, gypsies, and
Jehovah’s Witnesses to get worked up about because a textbook which
whitewashed the Holocaust was only distributed to 2% of the student
population in Germany?
2005 Aug 01 4:07 am
6.

Da Xiangchang:

Yeah, that textbook is pretty bad, though of course, I haven’t
read it. I’m curious to see how bad the CHINESE textbooks are.
That’s another thing: the Chinese are always (justifiably) bitching
about the Japanese whitewashing their atrocities, but come on, the
Chinese themselves are masters at that!. If I could only read Chinese
well, I would love to go through Chinese history books. That would be
a real treat!
2005 Aug 01 4:20 am
7.

greg pasden:

Have you read the book “FLY BOYS”?

This book gives alot of insight into how Asians treated each
other during WWII.

Maybe there is still animosity from this?

Some people may be only exposed to propoganda. This could
affect bias them as well.

I think the we’ve seen biases in the states for years. We,
as Americans, still see the division in certain areas. And I believe
that some people want to keep the gap from closing. Why? Because then
they can empower themselves as a spokesperson and build their egos.


I’m sure there are more reasons but I’m getting hungry.
2005 Aug 01 4:53 am
8.

Ben:

Give them time! I’m a European… after World War II, we had an
abundance of animosities here. Even in the 60s, when my parents where
traveling in France, they claimed to be Dutch… otherwise , many
French wouldn’t even talk to them, let alone selling something to
them or letting them check into a hotel. Yet, nowadays we have
created a rather peaceful atmosphere around here… there are
conflicts, of course, but a lot of respect in the first place.

Consider Asia to be in the early stages of this process.
The vast majority of the people just didn’t have the possibility
to look beyond their own national borders in the last 50 years - especially in China. They’re just starting to leave the past behind.
Sure enough, there are a lot of anti-Japanese sentiments among the
Chinese that I know - but at the same time a lot of genuine interest
in Japanese ways and lifestyle. They could be headed in a good
direction.

My first comment of a great blog which I’ve been following
for a long time, by the way. Best greetings!
2005 Aug 01 7:03 am
9.

Richard:

Sure, but the Germans were (from what I have seen) truly
contrite and worked to build a peaceful Europe. You can’t exactly
say that about the Japanese.
2005 Aug 01 9:14 am
10.

AD:

Greg said, “We, as Americans, still see the division in
certain areas. And I believe that some people want to keep the gap
from closing. Why? Because then they can empower themselves as a
spokesperson and build their egos.”

I couldn’t agree with you more. Certain organizations and
certain political parties really make me sick when they talk about
equality while deliberately keeping people unequal.

Back to the topic, I know nothing about Japan, but my Chinese
friends told me so much about hating Japan. Help me find something
positive to balance my perspective!
2005 Aug 02 6:28 am
11.

soudenjapan:

>because a textbook which whitewashed the Holocaust
>was only distributed to 2% of the student population
>in Germany?

But I somehow feel sure that more than 2% of junior high
students do not even read history textbook. I myself do not remember
at all what was written in histroy books. How did I learned about
Holocaust? I believe that it was “The Diary of Anne Frank” if my
memory serves. Something must have been mentioned about Holocaust
in Junior High history textbook, but I don’t remember anything.

I therefore feel that this 2% is really meaningless number.
What do you think of the significance of the number?
2005 Aug 03 2:41 am
12.

Richard:

The signifigance is that such a textbook (which whitewashes
several of the greatest crimes committed in our recent era-crimes
which impact the Japanese of today) is taught in any school. Would
you have a problem with a Japanese history textbook which completely
omitted a large and important chunk of Japanese history (such as the
Meiji Restoration)? How committed to teaching the truth are you?
2005 Aug 04 7:52 am
13.

Richard:

BTW, it’s not just textbooks. It’s stuff like this (from
http://www.outpostnine.com/editorials/teacher41.html):

“Taken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo. I went
through with one of my friends, and we had to laugh at just how
slanted the whole thing was. Laugh, or cry over the absurdity.
According to the text in the museum, the Japanese “expanded their
defensive concerns” into Korea, helped “establish order and control”
in China, and then were “forced into war” by the war-hungry
American government. That whole Axis power thing is barely mentioned,
and forget about trying to find anything that would portray the
Japanese as something other than a peaceful people minding their own
business in the Pacific.”

I mean, how much can you lie? How insanely biased can you get?
You know, Japanese museums should start teaching that not only should
Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been A-bombed, but that many other cities
should have been as well because of the crimes against humanity
committed by the Japanese, and that Japan should be taken over as a
colony of some other contry because they are not capable of self-rule.
2005 Aug 04 8:03 am
14.

Da Xiangchang:

Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say Japan is incapable of
self-rule. They’re quite capable, certainly better than most European
nations. Nor would I say Germans are “truly contrite.” I mean, the
German GOVERNMENT surely is, but I’m not sure if the individual
German is. Every single German I’ve talked to-granted, not a lot-have
expressed extreme impatience with talking about Hitler and the
Holocaust. They all say, “That was a long time ago!” Likewise,
there’s a strain in German mentality that Hitler was an evil that was
somehow imposed on the German people against their will when in
actuality the Nazis came to power in a democracy-i.e., the German
people MADE the Nazi Party the biggest in the country through
elections.
2005 Aug 05 6:57 am
15.

soudenjapan:

Richard,

>omitted a large and important chunk of Japanese
>history (such as the Meiji Restoration)?

Well, it is your view. But my view is that omitting Meiji
Restration equals to taking out the whole Sino-Japanese War, not a
specific event that occurred during the war. I believe my view is
fairer.

Korean junior high history texbook touches upon Vietnam War,
but it only says in one sentence that South Korea participated
Vietnam War. It does not mention anything about what korean soliders
did in Vietnam like atrocities and rapes as bad as what the
Japanese did, or even worse. 20,000 to 30,000 orphans are left
behind as a result. A South Korean told me once that those were
not rapes but Korean soldiers promised marrige to Vietnamees women
but they just did not keep their promises, and that’s all.

No appology until quite recently. President Roh appologized to
the Vietnamees for the first time. Prior to that ex-President Kim
“mentioned” about it according to the korean man. Virtually no
compensation except for helping school building in the areas where
atrocities took place.

All these while criticizing the Japanese government for not
doing enough with textbook writing, compensation, and , of course,
sincere appology to who suffered.

This is how people are. This is how people teach history to
kids.
2005 Aug 05 6:54 pm
16.

soudenjapan:

Richard,

>“Taken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo.

It is a theory, a conspiracy theory. People like to talk about
what they believe is the “turth.” Who killed JFK, or the Jews
control the 80% of the money in the world, etc.

You say it is a national museum. Where exactly is it located
in Tokyo? I tried to find the museum but Google did’nt turn it up.
The name of the museum might have been somewhat inaccurate.
2005 Aug 05 7:06 pm

17.

Gin:

Whoa, do I detect some “Kingsoft translation” here, in
other words, ??概念(tou1huan4 gai4nian4), sneaking in misconcepts?

soudenjapan,

20,000 to 30,000 orphans are left behind as a result. Are
you implying 20~30,000 orphans were all fathered by South Koreans?
Somehow, I find the mumber hard to believe. How many SK soldiers
were in there?

No appology until quite recently. President Roh appologized
to the Vietnamees for the first time. Prior to that ex-President
Kim “mentioned” about it according to the korean man. Virtually
no compensation except for helping school building in the areas
where atrocities took place. Are you comparing this to Japan’s
lack of satisfactory apology? There is NO comparison. Japan was the
initiator of the war, WW2, the invasion of China, and the invasion
into other Asian countries. This is a matter at an entirely different
level.

I tried to find the museum but Google did’nt turn it up. The
name of the museum might have been somewhat inaccurate. Now it is
an issue of the name of a museum?
2005 Aug 05 11:00 pm
18.

soudenjapan:

Gin,

>Somehow, I find the mumber hard to believe. How many
>SK soldiers were in there?

The number is a little over 51,000. It’s a very well-known
stroy about Korean soldiers in Vietnam. They say that Korean
soldiers raped every women they saw, and many of them were later
murdered in ways as horrifying as, or even more horrifying than the
ways of murdering which the Japanese soldiers are accused of.

To be accurate, let me quote the Krean man whom I was speaking
to.

“soudenjapan, you said thirty thousands of orphans left in
Vietnam was the result of rapes committed by South Korean soldiers.
But it is not true. It can depend on concept of rape, but most of
orphans were from broken Korean soldiers’ promise. Most of Korean
solder didn’t keep their promise to take Vietnam woman to korea or
to live with them after the war. A fact is a fact.”

>There is NO comparison.
>This is a matter at an entirely different level.

How different? Let me repond to you after finding out what
exactly your point is.

>Now it is an issue of the name of a museum?

Why not? What’s wrong with asking for the name of museum? Many
the Japanese people believe that too much amount of fabrication and
propaganda have been spread out by ill-intended Chinese and Koreans,
such as Iris Chung. So I’m just trying to be caustious. That’s
all, though I feel somewhat skeptical that a national museum displays
a conspiracy theory as part of their view.
2005 Aug 06 6:29 am
19.

Da Xiangchang:

Soudenjapan,

Oh, give me a ^*(^&%@ break! Criticizing Korean atrocities
doesn’t make the Japanese atrocities any better. You can talk
about the atrocities of the Koreans, the Ottomans, the Mongols, the
Romans, the ancient Egyptians, hell, even one Neanderthal tribe
against another, this still does NOT make the Japanese atrocities
any less worse than they were. The bottom line is Japan’s
“defensive” war against American “bullying” and the creation
of an “Asia for Asians” wiped out up to 30 million people, most
of whom were Asians, including 20 million Chinese. So once again,
I am INFINITELY GLAD America dropped those 2 A-bombs on Japan and
later stringing up Tojo and the rest of the thugs. In my book, the
60th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing should be a celebration,
not of regret. And for people with limited understanding of the
evil of the Japanese in WWII, here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanesewarcrimes#Japanese_views

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanjing_Massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731
2005 Aug 06 9:29 am
20.

Richard:

DXC: I was exaggerating for effect. My point is that the
distortion in that museum was as great
as my suggestions.

Oh, and you can ask the author of www.outpostnine.com where
the museum is. He knows Japanese, so he could probably give you the
Japanese name. I’ve read him a bit and he does not seem to make
shit up (pus, there’s a picture attached).

BTW, I find your assertion that 50K-60K soldiers fathered
20K children to be a bit hard to believe. Please provide some
evidence.

Oh, and as someone else stated earlier, there is NO COMPARISON.
Besides the fact that Japan embarked on a war of brutal conquest,
while the Koreans (and Americans) committed atrocities in Vietnam,
they did not commit them at nearly the same scale that the Japanese
did in China and elsewhere. They didn’t perform medical experiments
on civilians either. I have relatives on both sides of my family who
were murdered by Japanese soldiers. Those soldiers were never brought
to justice, and I’m almost sure that they never apologized either.

What I dislike is how some of you Japanese are still unwilling
to face the facts and what your forefathers did. I’m of the view
that if your father was a murderer and a rapist, you should call
your father a murderer and a rapist. It’s as simple as that. To
not do so is to be a coward.
2005 Aug 06 11:00 am
21.

Richard:

BTW, what are you asserting that Iris Chang fabricated? If
you have evidence that she did, I want to see it.

Oh, and your assertion that “this is how people are. This is
how people teach history to children” is bullshit. That might be
how cowards teach history to their kids, and that might be how
Japanese people are, but the Germans do not omit the Holocaust
when they teach history on WWII and the Americans do not omit
the tragic wrongs inflicted on the Native Americans when they
teach the history of their country.

Finally, Japanese atrocities were not confined to Nanjing.
That was merely the most visible and biggest crime against humanity
that they committed during that war.
2005 Aug 06 11:09 am
22.

soudenjapan:

Richard,

>BTW, what are you asserting that Iris Chang fabricated?
>If you have evidence that she did, I want to see it.

Take a lood at some of the pictures she used in her book.

http://www.jiyuu-shikan.org/e/fujioka/index.html

Today, no serious scholar in the U.S., China, Japan, or any
other countries do not quote Iris Chung nor does cite her best
selling book “Rape of Nanking.” So-called revisionists contributed
to uncovering her faburication. Some serious historians in the U.S.
were also pointing out frauds in her book from the beginning.

2005 Aug 06 12:08 pm
23.

soudenjapan:

>but the Germans do not omit the Holocaust when
>they teach history on WWII and the Americans do
> not omit the tragic wrongs inflicted on the Native
>Americans when they teach the history of their
>country.

Holocaust is an atrocity of entirely different nature. Jewish
people were not terrorists, insurgents, or guerrilla fighters. They
were regular civilians.

Richard, you take a huge pride in how Americans face their
past conducts, for which, I personally believe, you have a good
ground, but even today people in Central and South America
unbelievably bitterly criticize Americans for not facing its
conducts in the past in their countries that caused tremendous
suffering to them.

I have been disscussing many issues with Americans but you
are the first one I’ve met who takes such a huge pride in
Americas’s ability to face its past conducts, admitting its
wrong doings, not to mention reparations.
2005 Aug 06 12:22 pm
24.

soudenjapan:

>You can talk about the atrocities of the Koreans,
>the Ottomans, the Mongols, the Romans, the
>ancient Egyptians, hell, even one Neanderthal
>tribe against another,

Yes, we can talk. I talk. Nothing is wrong with it as you suggest.

>atomic bomb

I am not necessarily for using A-bombs, but, putting emotions
aside, I’ve always credited those bombs for finally ending the
WW II. I just wish that the bombs had been used a little earlier
than August, 1945. Had the war ended a litte earlier, my grandfather
could have survived. He died in his very last sailing mission before
retirement as cheif engineer.
2005 Aug 06 12:41 pm
25.

soudenjapan:

Richard,

>while the Koreans (and Americans) committed
> atrocities in Vietnam, they did not commit them
> at nearly the same scale that the Japanese
>did in China and elsewhere.

I believe that it is just a matter of scale of the war and
the number of people involved. That is why Koreans lost only 5000
soldiers while Japanese lost several million.
2005 Aug 06 12:47 pm
26.

soudenjapan:

>BTW, I find your assertion that 50K-60K soldiers
>fathered 20K children to be a bit hard to believe.
>Please provide some evidence.

Asking someone from South Korea about the revelation is the
best way to get to the infromation. Hankyoreh 21, a weekly Korean
magazine, published the information for the first time in South
Korea. Then the Hankyoreh Shinmun, a Korean daily, investigated the
issue in Vietnam and reported with some interviews with former
Korean officers.

In Japan Asahi Newspaper reported it in March 17, 2001 for
the first time.

The exact number of the orphans is unknown because they were
treated badly in Vietnam and are relactant to come forward. The
estimated figures differ from source to source but they fall
somewhere between 7000 to 50,000. In taltal, 320,000 Korean
soldiers were sent to Vietnam during the war.

The investigation is still going on in Vietnam according
to the Korean man I quoted.
2005 Aug 06 5:22 pm
27.

soudenjapan:

Richard,

>Taken from the National War History Museum in Tokyo

This National War History Museum turned out to be a museum
attached to Yasukuni Shurine. It is a private institution. That
makes sense. I told you it sounded weird for any of such a
presitgious museum with many scholars assert a conspiracy theory.
2005 Aug 06 5:53 pm
28.

soudenjapan:

Da Xiangchang,

>So once again, I am INFINITELY GLAD America dropped
>those 2 A-bombs on Japan and later stringing up Tojo
>and the rest of the thugs. In my book, the 60th
>anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing should be a
>celebration, not of regret.

That’s fine with me. Either way, whether you celebrate or
regret it, what difference does it make unless you are a very
important person or your view influences a policy? You are entitle
to your opinion.
2005 Aug 06 8:01 pm
29.

Da Xiangchang:

Another rather balanced take on the Hiroshima bombing:

http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200508050714.asp

There’s another good thing that came out of Hiroshima.
Without the bombing, there wouldn’t have been that famous 1950s
French movie “Hiroshima Mon Amour” in which a perverted Japanese
man frolicked with a hot French woman in the showers. My eyes were
popping when I watched the movie the first time cuz it involved an
explicit interracial romance. I mean, even now in 2005, mainstream
Hollywood’s NOT going to show some Asian guy rolling around in the
sack with a hot pink broad, but the French were doing it in
the ’50s. So yeah, I gotta say, the French ain’t all bad. You
got to love the Louvre, Impressionism . . . and movies about
perverted Asian guys lusting after hot pink women (”Hiroshima”
and the pretentious but fun “The Lover”).
2005 Aug 07 3:09 am



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